VOLO - TradeCloud Partnership: Choosing a Software Outsourcing Partner

A Dialogue Between Matthew Botell, COO of TradeCloud and Armen Kocharyan, CEO of VOLO

Matthew Botell, COO of TradeCloud, and Armen Kocharyan, CEO of VOLO, came together to discuss their shared visions and strategies for navigating the future of digital innovation. Their dialogue delves into the critical topic of software outsourcing, shedding light on how Matthew chose VOLO for TradeCloud's software development needs, and in general, discussing the complex topic of how to choose the right software outsourcing partner. Discover the insights and perspectives that drive their decisions, as well as the collaborative efforts that are shaping the future of their companies and the tech industry at large. 

TradeCloud is a comprehensive commodity trading platform built on blockchain technology, offering a secure and efficient solution for the commodities industry. It ensures compliance and streamlined communication, setting a new standard in the trading ecosystem.

What criteria did you use to select a software outsourcing partner?

Matthew: The first part of the process for TradeCloud was really our CTO's part. So, he looked at the technical side of what different companies offered. He looked at 20 different companies and basically narrowed it down to three. And then it was time for the business. I, myself and Simon, the CEO, came in and participated in face-to-face meetings. 

For me, as the product owner, the most important thing is - can I work with these people? I'm going to be doing a long project, maybe two or three projects for over two or three years, so I'd better enjoy working with these people․ 

VOLO was actually the third company on the road trip that we came to and immediately, we felt a different energy from the VOLO people. They were engaged, they were well-prepared, and they were very inquisitive and asked many different questions. And I felt that when designing the TradeCloud platforms, I would have a lot of feedback coming from them and that I would have a better platform designed as a result of them challenging me at different points. 

So, ultimately your team really pushed you over the line and anybody that is considering  selecting VOLO as a company, I really recommend that they come and sit with you guys, come to the offices and actually see what you guys are doing and see what you guys are about,  because that energy is what really sold us. 

What are some of the lessons learned during your collaboration?

Armen: Obviously, this collaboration was not without its challenges but we learned a lot from each other. And the best thing that I can highlight is the trust gained during the process. There was much contribution from the TradeCloud side: being on-site and working, whiteboarding the problems, and discussing the questions which the team came up with. All of this led to a better alignment between VOLO and TradeCloud, and I think that was a big driver of success. 

During this process, you also learn how to deliver the project. Specifically, I think that the agile development mindset was a big achievement in our success, where we were able to deliver the requested functionality incrementally, show value, and have continuous discussions and pivoting. We realized during this collaboration that the industry is very fast, requires quick decision-making and pivoting and fast delivery of results  which is why being agile is important. We were able to successfully implement this agile concept together and continuously develop and build on that.

Matthew: Yeah, the whiteboarding is a very good point that you bring up because I really felt VOLO added a lot of value there. As a designer of a product, I work best when I'm in front of a whiteboard, but also when I've got the team from VOLO asking me questions, challenging me and saying, "How does that work? Could it work like this or could it work like that?". And I really feel that we ended up with a better product because of that collaboration. 

Armen: Super! And I think that every time you left these whiteboarding sessions, the great thing during the discussions with the team after your visit was that everyone was aligned, the objective was clear, the team knew in which direction they should work to during the next several sprints, and it was kind of motivating for everyone to know that - here is the target, we'll achieve that and we'll make a breakthrough and it was a very big advantage, I guess. 

Matthew: We felt as well that it was important for the whole team in VOLO, from BAs to developers, to testers, to at least understand the business behind it, because in my experience of 20 years of developing different software solutions normally in the CTRM space for trading companies, you're explaining it to the business analyst and the business analyst is maybe getting 70% of what you're trying to say because you're the expert and they're trying to become the expert and then they're having to put that into a language that a developer understands. And if the developer hasn't got an understanding of what the business is, they will literally just program the black-and-white of what they're given and the tester may not actually be as effective in testing if they don't understand it either. And I think that's why VOLO are very well-positioned to tackle the commodity space, for example, because you guys do have an understanding of the underlying business and therefore there's far less chance of you developing something that doesn't make sense so that when the customers actually get the product at various different stages, they're not going to get any nasty surprises. 

To what do you attribute your successful 6-year collaboration with VOLO? 

Matthew: Here is another thing that I thought really set VOLO apart from the rest - I've worked with in-house teams, which have been sat next to me or in other field offices. Putting together teams is obviously difficult, especially in certain times when finding people is difficult and you often end up with contractors. The problem with contractors is that often they're very expensive, but they're also not invested in your product build. They're there for a short time. With VOLO I really felt that their people wanted to achieve the best results possible as much as the TradeCloud people did. It didn't feel like I was outsourcing by the end. It felt as if I was challenged on, "You really want to do it that way? Does it really make sense? Because I'm looking at it logically from a consumer's perspective and I think it would be difficult to press that button and then have to press that button. Why don't we just do that the other way  around?”. It's that soft skill that you're not going to see, and that soft factor you're not going to see in a PowerPoint presentation. You're not going to see that in a proposal term sheet of how much it's going to cost. And that's why I think it's very important to actually come and see how VOLO are doing things and I can only recommend people to do that and to experience what we've experienced. 

Armen: And yes, I agree. We encourage our clients to do that traveling - that's a big benefit. At VOLO, we're always practicing this thinking: you are taking the best professionals and I say that usually your professional knowledge is your brain and you know how to execute on it. And if you are working only with your brain, you can produce good results but to give life to these  results, you need to put in a bit of heart. And when your heart and brain connect, you play along those lines, you become really committed to what you are doing, you realize what that product is built for, who it will serve, and what change it will bring, and you immediately become a team member who is not only a knowledge keeper but also a person who tries to put heart in the results of that knowledge which will then be invested in that system's platforms, right? 

We very much encourage this combination and I'm very happy that we're able to work well in that concept. I agree to make that happen in the right way, like being in our office, seeing the people, sitting with the people, and working on the whiteboard and trying to create this open communication and understanding where things are going - all of these are crucial for success. And I'm very thankful to you and your team for having all this. I mean, there has been a huge amount of work done also from your side for this success and for this whole philosophy to happen, and I'm very thankful for that. 

Outsourcing vs. an in-house team: what's your take on this topic?

Matthew: Another factor I think that I was concerned about when we were selecting a vendor, was  that every vendor that we went to was going to be an outsourced vendor. I think a lot of companies are basically considering, "Okay, am I going to be doing it in-house? Am I going to outsource?” And one of my big concerns was that I was used to working with people in-house, where they were more accessible and I could have more time where I was actually face-to-face with them. But I was really pleased. I mean the technology is there today with video conferencing, Teams meetings, Slack, Jira, whatever you use, and communication is so good now that I found it really easy working together and now I would have no issues with the geography of being a plane ride away from the people that were actually developing the platform for me. 

Armen: Exactly! And I think that the experience that we built around that was also very supportive during the pandemic period. The challenge of the pandemic where everyone was in different locations, was something we were already prepared for, as we were practicing open communication and distributed operations even before the pandemic, while most of our development team was still on-site. So, even during the pandemic we were very successful in continuing and delivering success. 

Matthew: I was talking to your sales director and we were discussing how you approach customers, how we approach commodity companies and it was really the first page of the presentation. I said, "Well, on time, on budget, on spec." She said: "Yeah but everybody claims that." And it may well be true that everybody claims that but I think it's very important for me as a customer that has used VOLO for many, many years and has also been doing this kind of work in-house with trading companies for many, many years, to actually say that when it comes down to VOLO, in my experience it's absolutely true - on time, on budget, on spec.

Comparing proposals: how to avoid making fatal mistakes?

Matthew: It's very difficult when you're trying to review three different proposals from three different companies. You don't know any of them other than maybe one or two meetings. You don't know who has delivered on time in the past and who hasn't, and there's a feeling that, okay, if I don't know any better I'm going to go with the one that says they can do it cheapest. But if one is going to cost me X a month and one's going to cost me 1.2x a month, it doesn't necessarily mean that the 1X is going to be cheaper. Because if you have overrun the project and we also know this, we have a lot of experience in the commodity industry, okay? I don't know anybody who is happy with their IT delivery in our industry. It's an absolute common situation where it takes too long, it's not necessarily what you want and it's a distraction from the day-to-day business. 

And I think the power of VOLO is they're going to basically do it in an extremely efficient way. There may well be scope creep and that's I think something that in my experience in the past has been very poorly communicated by project managers. So, for example, you may well say, "Okay, yep, I'm discussing with the team and yeah, I'd actually like to have those bells and whistles added to it." If you haven't got a good project manager that says, "Yeah you can do that, but bear in mind it's going to cost you an extra 4 weeks of work which will cost X." And then you can make a decision which is all we want to be able to do. If you have very bad project management, what you basically have is nobody telling you, "Oh, by the way this is the  consequence of it." 

And if you have a waterfall process, instead of it being delivered in March, you're getting something delivered in September and it's costing twice as much and nobody can tell you why, and that's where the frustration of the business comes in. And I think it's one of the things that we really learned extremely well between us as companies in terms of project management. 

There's always a rueful smile when we're talking with the teams over dinner when I come down now in terms of, "Yeah, you're a tough customer." Okay, the commodity industry is a tough customer, we're very demanding. But we've really worked very, very well together. There's a huge trust there. And that transparency that your project management process has now given us allows us to make decisions on how we want to develop based on the facts. You can do this but it's going to cost you this. You better tell your other stakeholders, if you want to do this, the project is going to be a month later. And the problem is when you're on a bigger project, you've got 10 different questions like this. 

So, for example, I did a project in a trading company once where my finance department finally had a chance to do their finance module and they thought, "Okay, I better ask for absolutely everything that I can possibly have, because as soon as they stop doing it, I'm not going to get another chance for another two years.” And they put so many bells and whistles in it, that when it was finally released, the platform moved like walking through a heavy sludge. And then we had to spend another 3 months taking out all the search criteria and it was really frustrating. 

Whereas, if you have good project management and you have good development and good communication which VOLO absolutely has, you'll basically be able to say, "You do realize if you do this, it's going to take you this time, but the platform is not going to be workable." And I think that communication is often lacking and it's something that VOLO does extremely well.

Why do so many software projects fail?

Armen: I also want to reflect on the estimation part that you mentioned. The biggest part in our enterprise of clients are those who previously failed with other development companies. And with every such case, we try to understand why that happened with other companies. And when we analyze, we always get into the situation that the client started this relationship because of an unrealistic estimation, because of a very small budget. As you mentioned, when you have these three proposals and one is twice cheaper than the other two, you think, "Okay, let's start from here. It's the same kind of people behind all this process anyway." They don’t get into the details. 

We realize that, but always because of the concept that you need to put in a heart and build a long-term relationship with your client and go the long way, we are focused from day one to be very realistic and to try to understand the details, try to understand the risks, and try to define an MVP which is workable, being as precise as possible without big variations. So, yes, you are right, in many situations in business development we are losing the possibilities to work with clients because they choose the cheapest one. That's true but VOLO will continue to be committed to being as open and as detailed to whatever proposal we are giving as possible. The project management team needs to analyze and scope the MVP in greater detail with the client, building a continuous relationship, fostering open communication, and creating a trusting environment together where we can really understand that, "Hey, we as one team need to get this in this period and we need to commit and work together.”

How have VOLO’s processes evolved over the years to keep long-term clients happy?

Armen: During the last six years, there has been a big transformation in our business as well as operations. I remember when we started with the same commitment and hard work and everything, asking a lot of questions, stretching ourselves to develop a lot of things but in six years period, we had a huge learning from the process and I think the project management enhancements and becoming more transparent are things which I verify as big achievements in the process. 

The next thing that we realized brings huge effectiveness to our collaboration is enhancing the process of business analytics. I think that also helped us during these six years. We went from 5 to 100, let's say, it was a big transition of how we listen to each other, how we bring all the stakeholders around the concepts, and try to go as deep as possible and be as precise as possible so that the development time span is as effective as it can be. 

We saw a significant improvement in the delivery of these solutions, their validation in different environments, and their deployment to our clients. I mean, during the whole process, from development to production and maintenance and monitoring of mission-critical systems, we just wanted to be sure that the TradeCloud platform would be running continuously, operating hasslefree, all the while remaining always available. This was also a big transition that we went through together during the last six years and are still working together on it. I think there are still ways and ways to improve but what we built during the past years together was a perfect achievement.

What collaboration approach did you find worked best for your project with VOLO?

Matthew: It's been very good and I think it's at a good point in terms of quality. The first platform has now been live for I think nearly 5 years. It's never been down, there's never been a security  breach, it's always done what it's supposed to do.

I think part of the adaptation of the process of development… There's definitely ways of doing it in best practice in the industry, I'm a big fan of agile as opposed to waterfall but the team and I learned how to get the most efficient process. I'm a very visual person, so when I'm designing a screen, personally I like to do it on a whiteboard with people challenging me which is good. But then the next thing that we would do is we would have the screens actually mocked up in a digital design without any development behind. And then I can actually visualize what’s coming, etc. And then my business analyst was asking me question after question and the visual was helping her fully understand the business behind. 

And after that, of course comes the part that every business person hates most - the user story, because the business analyst is literally writing down in black and white exactly what the developer is going to take verbatim. You've really got to concentrate but the whole process worked extremely fluidly. 

When I started doing this kind of IT development 20 years ago, it was all a Waterfall process and it's just dreadful. If you can actually now have something released to you every two weeks, every four weeks, you basically don't have surprises, especially if you have the strong project management and reporting behind it, as VOLO does. 

It also means that you can change direction if you need to, which is very important, rather than, for example, if you're building a CTRM waiting for the whole thing and then going big bang. I mean, I would have 70-page documents to review for something I was talking about 6 months ago. This doesn't work for me, I can't remember what's been said, whereas the process we had with VOLO was - very short time spans, small chunks of work, so it's completely fresh in the mind and you're able to sign things off very quickly.

Another aspect I'd like to focus on is the testing. I think over time we developed a perfect situation. So, just to explain, we had three environments for TradeCloud, one of them was called TradeCloud Sprints which is basically the area where the developers and the VOLO testers did all of their testing. I was only allowed to test something when I was told, “Yeah, you might have five things to find rather than 50 things to find,” and then once I had gone through and I was okay then it would go into the user acceptance testing live environment and that's basically where the rest of my team could have a look but it was 99% good because me as the product owner, I'd already been through it. And that's important that it already gets into that phase because that's also our demonstration environment and then of course, it goes live. 

I think in a big or medium-size even commodity company one of the biggest challenges is basically finding time for the business to step away from the business and - I’m always overworked - to actually spend time on testing. It is a real chore, so to have such a strong testing structure as VOLO has, I think really decreases the burden on the customer and that's extremely valuable.

Armen: Another point which I think was very good for the management generally - and I very appreciate you being so committed on this production and delivery stage in every phase of the development - so, another point was the steering meetings that we were having together. This was giving us a possibility to align on the management level on what was happening, what should be fixed, was everything good? On the production level we may miss something or there may be some actions which can radically help the teams in terms of improving their collaboration. And I really appreciate that concept of aligning together outside of the project, discussing what can be enhanced, how we can make things better, how we can do things better, in other words, just always thinking to challenge the status quo and find more effective ways, regardless of the general task level execution. This approach was very helpful for the management alignment and ensuring that we understood how things were going and ensuring that we could always find better ways. So, I very much appreciate this collaboration, the whole process of it.

Where does company culture come into play?

Matthew: What I call the company DNA and you see it in various different companies and it often comes down from the CEO who sets the tone, shall we say so. I once had a president of the company who was a workaholic and therefore he set the bar very high. But when I walked through your office and when I walked through it for the first time, I really could see that camaraderie that is there and I immediately felt I can work in this environment, it's great. I mean, we in Europe when we're working in offices, we're often just grabbing meals at our desk quickly or going off in twos and threes to have lunch, etc., here you come and everybody's having lunch together. It's amazing how they're socializing outside, it's a very close-knit team that you've built and I think it's a very good reflection of you as a human being and how you want your company to be.

Now that actually has a very interesting knock-on effect on how you deliver for your business. When I was working in the trading company, there would be quite a turnover - remember I talked about contractors coming and going - now that has a knock-on effect itself in terms of delivery because one person's up to speed, suddenly they're gone, you've got to get the next person up to speed, and if that's a business analyst role as well, that's a really serious problem. I think that your staff retention and the strength and cohesion of your teams means that you are able to provide that continuity, so you're not having to bring new people up to speed and that is a kind of soft part which you're never going to see in a presentation, you're never going to see in a business proposal but it may be as important as 10 or 20% of the time spent on the actual project and therefore the cost as well. So, it's important to understand that and it's very hard to get that part across without you actually coming and seeing for yourself what environment you're going to be working within. 

Armen: That's great, I'm happy for our partnership and I'm glad that we're doing this together. Thank you. 

Matthew: Thank you.

Before You Go

As you can see, this long-standing collaboration has been pivotal in advancing TradeCloud's technological capabilities and reinforcing VOLO's role as a trusted software development partner. It once again highlights our team's commitment to delivering quality and innovation through strong collaborative efforts. 

We are clear and concise in our intentions during all our partnerships and we value our time and the time of our clients and never play around the bush. That's why, we aim for building lasting collaborations where there is mutual trust, transparency, and clarity. 


And if you are looking for a software partner for your next project, you may well be in the right place now. Let our experts look into your case and we'll let you know whether or not you need our help to build your next product.